From farm waste to green fashion

Brian Thomson: 00:00:05

This is farms, food, future, a podcast that's good for you, good for the planet, and good for farmers brought to you by the International Fund for Agricultural Development.

Brian: 00:00:17

Welcome to episode 84. I'm Brian Thomson.

Michelle Tang: 00:00:21

And Co presenting this edition. I'm Michelle Tang.

Brian: 00:00:24

This time we're talking fashion, but not the fast kind.

Michelle: 00:00:28

We mean fashion with roots.

Brian: 00:00:31

Fashion that respects where it comes from and where it's going, and I'm glad to see you dressed up for the fashion episode, a little bit Chanel.

Michelle: 00:00:42

Both sustainable!

Brian: 00:00:44

Really? Sustainable Chanel?

:: 00:44

Vintage, used.

Brian: 00:00:52

Somebody else’s waste Michelle will pick it up!

Michelle: 00:00:56

Yeah, Michele's fashion. And yes, if you're wondering, David Bowie's fashion is always welcome on the playlist.

Brian: 00:01:03

We're heading to the Peruvian Amazon, where the Arjun people are transforming the sheringal tree into a plant-based leather that's catching the eye of designers around the world.

Michelle: 00:01:18

It’s called Shiringa Bio-leather and it's more than just an alternative to animal leather.

Brian: 00:01:23

In a world where fashion contributes up to 10% of global emissions, according to the UNF Triple C, which is the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, it's clear that a different way isn't just possible, it's already happening.

Michelle: 00:01:40

And we'll meet a company turning food waste into fashion gold, which is now being used by luxury brands worldwide.

Brian: 00:01:47

It's not just any food waste, but Italian orange peel.

Michelle: 00:01:52

And to wrap up, we're zooming out to ask the big questions. How is fashion tied to land degradation and what can we do to change it?

Brian: 00:02:01

So whether you're into textiles, climate action or just curious about what your clothes are made of, there's something here for you.

Michelle: 00:02:11

Don't forget we want to hear from you. What do you think about our stories and who you want us to be talking to? So please get in touch with us at podcasts at ifad.org.

Brian: 00:02:22

You can also subscribe to this podcast via your favorite podcast platform. And please don't forget to rate us.

Michelle: 00:02:30

Coming up, we speak with Emma Håkansson, activist, founder of collective fashion justice and director of the new film SHIRINGA, fashion regenerating Amazonia.

:: 02:49

You're listening to farms, food future with me, fashion victim Brian Thompson and high fashion plate Michelle Tang.

:: 02:57

We're joined now by Emma Håkansson, founder of Collective Fashion Justice and organization fighting for a more equitable, sustainable fashion industry.

Brian: 00:03:08

Emma is also the director behind SHIRINGA, a film that explores the Awajún people's work with the Shiringa tree in the Peruvian Amazon.

Michelle: 00:03:17

It's a story about more than fabric. It's about care, reciprocity and knowledge passed down through generations.

Brian: 00:03:25

Our reporter, Rosa Gonzalez, spoke to Emma.

Rosa González: 00:03:31

Thanks for joining us, Emma. It's a pleasure to have you. How did your work with Collective Fashion Justice first connect with the Awajún community and the idea for Shiringa bio-leather?

Emma Håkansson: 00:03:44

So Collective Fashion Justice as a charity exists to create what we call a “total ethics fashion system” so benefiting people, animals and the planet rather than just one or two of those groups because we see their well-being is internally expected and when the organization was very young, we were able to see every time someone followed us because we were still quite small. And so we saw that another very small page followed us and that was material innovator working with indigenous communities to make Shiringa bio-leather, though it wasn't necessarily called that at the time and over time.

They sort of developed the relationship, learned more as they were developing the material, showcased them at Melbourne Fashion Week, put them in our reports and in my book Total Ethics Fashion. And then it was at the Milan Fashion Film Festival when I was the sustainability judge that I realized a lot of these people in, you know, leading creative roles at luxury brands they had never heard about the sustainability work that we were doing, even if their sustainability team had, it hadn't made it kind of up further in the business and that beautiful stories are an essential part of getting those people to understand the value of responsible innovation.

So, I was thinking about a film series where we would highlight materials that aligned with this total ethics fashion approach and the Shiringa Bio-leather that Caxacori Studio makes with the Awajún people in the Peruvian Amazon to me was the perfect example of that because it is a material that is animal free that is made in a way that's regenerative because it's collecting SAP from Shiringa trees without causing harm to them. It benefits the indigenous community. It also has a far lower climate impact, biodiversity impact and actually helps that community to defend their land against deforestation. That is primarily for mining and for cattle ranching, and it's also one of the few next generation leathers which is one of the terms we use for bio-based materials that has more of a social benefit because a lot of the materials are using agricultural waste, which is really great for the circular economy or are using things that are mostly made in kind of western markets with inputs that are quite sterile.

Whereas this is one of the only bioleathers that has a really clear social impact connection to indigenous culture, helping to support that culture while also helping them to bring in the funding that they want for themselves to improve their nutrition, to improve education for their children. And so that's why it aligned with us so strongly this, they solve the problems of the fashion industry and a wonderful solution in one space, and it was not very well known because of language barriers in the fashion industry because of a lack of funding and marketing that big businesses have, but that small innovators doing really good things don't have so collective fashion. Justice really sees itself as hopefully, a conduit through which people doing really wonderful things can be shown to the fashion industry because of the connections we've been able to build.

Rosa: 00:06:41

Mm-hmm. So once more people know about materials like this, what would it take for them to be adopted more widely in mainstream fast?

Emma: 00:06:51

Money is the boring but truthful answer. If you compare fashion to other industries, the amount of money that is spent on research and development is actually very small. We know that the fashion industry has a lot of massive problems to overcome, both in relation to environmental issues, but also animal and human ethical issues.

And so we need investment in innovators like tax Cory studio that are working with indigenous communities, government and intergovernmental bodies should help as well. But the industry has a responsibility since they will benefit from this longer term.

Then a lot of the materials used today, animal drive flower, fossil, fuel based synthetic materials. The climate crisis is going to make those either through legislative reform or through the impact of the climate crisis much harder to source anyway. So we need to, from a business perspective, make a change. Materials can't develop if they don't have support to scale. So at the moment there are more people in the Awajún community that are interested to make Shiringa buio-leather than there is interested to use.

That if there was more investment, those people could help to train other younger people in the community to get involved, they could scale up the lab to the capacity that it needs to to replace some of the animal derived and fossil fuel based materials used. So yeah, it's a boring answer money, but it's the reality and also the fashion industry has a lot of money at the moment because of exploitation, a lot of materials come from supply chains where people are not being paid, where environmental costs and costs against animal lives are not being paid. Whereas if you look at the community benefit of Shiringa bio-leather, the Peruvian government says that an average monthly income for a native household family is about 30 four U.S. dollars per month. In comparison, if someone is working, not even every day because they don't necessarily want to, they want to be able to continue with the way that they have lived amongst nature and enjoy themselves, which we could all learn a bit from. They could make $216 .U.S. dollars per month from only working sometimes developing the Shiringa bio-leather. So investment from the fashion industry will benefit them. They'll get a good material and it will also benefit us all because this community is defending the Amazon which you know we all call the lungs of the earth, there's so much more cost that they're protecting by being supported as well.

Rosa: 00:09:12

Yeah, definitely. And we can see a lot more about the our home in your film SHIRINGA, which captures beautifully the story behind the material land and the people. What's been the impact so far?

Emma: 00:09:25

So, the goal of our film SHIRINGA was really to bring attention to this material because when we had spoken about it to brands at an early stage, they hadn't heard of it yet, and obviously they can't use something they've not heard of. So since we launched the film in February, so not that long ago, we've already come a really long way. We've been featured in the BBC invoke business in Sourcing journal and Places where the fashion industry are looking. We have events coming up at Copenhagen Fashion Week and other international fashion weeks where we've been able to connect the material innovators to designers to use it for the first time, to trial it. we have a designer in London that is looking to have the first big collection of shoes and those kinds of investments is massive for an innovator because it means they're securing their funding to keep on doing what they're doing for a while. So that's really exciting to us and also hopefully just the beginning cause we've got a lot more ahead of us promoting what they're doing, and a big thing that we hope is that it can expand into other Awajún communities that want to do this but just aren't able to yet because there's no one to take it.

The big next step for us is to be able to have a larger number of big investments and fashion brands, but also to connect with the many intergovernmental bodies that have targets that are aligned with what Cax Cory studio is doing around, you know, the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals because it takes a lot of those boxes.

Rosa: 00:10:53

What do you hope people feel or think after watching the film?

Emma: 00:10:58

I think for me, my hope is that they feel just a little bit of actually what I felt when I went and visited. I think you know to be in the Amazon, which a lot of people have a kind of idea of it being this spectacular by a diverse place. It really lives up to its hype, but also to speak to some of their own women, like Doris and Rosalia, who are featured in the film, and to understand their connection to the land better, their hopes for the future generations and how incredibly important it is that they continue to defend land, I want people to be able to feel some of that fierceness in them and to also see some of that connection and feel it for themselves. I think a lot of us have lost this recognition that we really are a part of nature and that's what has led us to destroy so much for at our own detriment, Rosalia has one line in the film where she says people would dress differently if they really understood how clothing can either protect life or destroy life.

And that is totally true. So at an individual level, I hope people might reconsider their wardrobes and where they come from, and then the fashion industry is just made-up of individuals too. So if they have that same reflection, maybe they'll consider what their businesses profit from and where their materials come from.

Brian: 00:12:17

Thanks Emma and Rosa.

Michelle: 00:12:20

Now let's hear directly from Doris and Rosalia the women at the heart of this story.

Brian: 00:12:25

Their words remind us that fashion isn't just about what we wear, but how we live with the land.

Doris: 00:12:35

We carve into Shiringa it leaps up and then we help it heal with soil.

Rosalia: 00:12:40

We take our diets from nature with the same care.

Doris: 00:12:46

If people wear this, they could be proud to know it came from and protects nature.

Rosalia: 00:12:54

Create beauty for us while respecting and protecting the beauty of the jungle.

Doris: 00:13:00

If people really understood how fashion can destroy or protect, we would all live better.

Michelle: 00:13:08

Thank you Doris and Rosalia. Communities like the Awajún have been using the Shiringa tree for generations.

Brian: 00:13:15

Now, with support from Collective Fashion Justice and Caxacori Studio, they're sharing it with the world.

Michelle: 00:13:23

You can watch the full film SHIRINGA on waterbear by going to www.waterbear.com/watch/shiringa

Brian: 00:13:35

Up next we speak to Jorge Caxacori, CEO of Caxacori studio, a Lima based studio designing sustainable biomaterials including Shringa bio-leather.

Michelle: 00:13:55

You're listening to farms, food future with me, Michelle Tang and Brian Thompson.

Brian: 00:14:00

Deep in the Peruvian Amazon, the Awajún people have been harvesting from the Shiringa tree for generations.

Michelle: 00:14:08

Now, through an innovative partnership, their ancestral knowledge is shaping one of fashions’ most exciting, sustainable materials.

Brian: 00:14:17

At the forefront of this transformation is Jorge Cajacuri, CEO of Caxacori Studio, a design lab pioneering sustainable biomaterials

Michelle: 00:14:29

Caxacori Studio is helping to bring this rainforest innovation to global markets.

Brian: 00:14:35

Creating economic opportunities while protecting vital ecosystems.

:: 14:40

Our reporter Katherine Velastegui spoke with Jorge.

Katherine Velastegui: 00:14:47

Thanks so much for joining us today, Jorge, to start off, can you tell us how did Caxacori studio begin and what inspired you to combine material designs with Amazon conservation?

Jorge Cajacuri: 00:15:01

In: 2014

This allows families to generate income from the forest without having to cut down trees, since the process doesn't damage the tree. That's how we started working with Shiringa leather because of its positive relationship with the Amazon.

Katherine: 00:15:54

And for those who might not know, could you also explain a bit more about what Syringa beer leather actually is? What do you think sets it apart from other materials?

Jorge: 00:16:07

To understand Shiringa bio-leather, you need to know a little about the Shiringa tree itself. It has a long history in Latin America, almost two centuries since rubber started being used on a large scale. Back then, many trees were cut down to extract latex. Nowadays rubber plantations exist, but we work with wild Shiringa trees.

These trees contain latex which native families in the Amazon collect without damaging or cutting them down. Then that latex is turned into Shiringa leather. This material has a strong social impact and directly helps prevent deforestation making the forest a sustainable source of income for local families.

Katherine: 00:16:50

I see though, when it comes to working with the local communities, how do those collaborations actually work on the ground? What kind of change have you seen for them?

:: 17:03

We work in a communal reserve in northern Peru, near the border with Ecuador.

It's a large protected forest where native communities have lived for generations.

The forest is incredibly rich in flora, including the Shiringa tree, which grows naturally. No one plants it. For example two Shiringa trees might be 100 meters apart. These families already know how to work with Shiringa. The skill passes down over generations. We [Caxacori Studio] follow a protocol. We collect about 200 milliliters of latex from each tree every 48 hours. The families process the latex, and we then transported to Lima, where it's turned into leather.

At the moment we're currently working with 59 families from the Awajún groups and this year we'll be adding thirteen more families from Awajún peoples. In Peru there are at least 51 native ethnic groups. We currently work with just two, so the potential is huge. We're only operating in the North, but Shiringa trees and native communities also exist in central and southern Peru and in other Amazon countries too. Shiringa bio-leather is powerful, not just economically, but also in how it supports entrepreneurship.

The money these families earn goes into essentials like food and education. Keep in mind, these are families living deep in the jungle, no electricity, no Internet, no appliances. So this support makes a big difference.

Katherine: 00:18:36

That's incredible. Especially the fact that it's wild latex and also non plantation based. On the technical side, what does the process of turning the latex into bio-leather involve?

Jorge: 00:18:52

Wild latex is different from plantation latex, for starters, Peru has no rubber plantations. We only used wild late. The process has to faces. The first happens in the jungle and is artisanal done by native communities. The second is more technical and takes place in Lima. In the jungle they collect the latex and put it through a preservation process so it stays liquid for a few months. Then we separate the water from the latex and after that we mix it with a base formula and use it to laminate a cotton fabric. It goes through a drying process and that's what becomes the leather. The result is a soft yet durable material that meets the technical standards of the fashion industry, and we're always looking to improve it.

Katherine: 00:19:43

Finally, looking ahead, what's your vision of Caxacori Studio and the future of biomaterials in fashion?

Jorge: 00:19:52

Right now, we're focused on a few big goals. First, improving the bio-leather itself. At the moment, our material is made with up 87 percent natural components. The remaining 13 percent is synthetic, but we're working towards reaching 100 percent natural in the future. Second, in terms of impact, 60 percent of Peru is jungle where one of nine Amazonian countries. So the potential for white latex from the sharingan tree is enormous. This tree could really support the communities that live around it.

Michelle: 00:20:28

Thank you, Jorge and Katherine.

Brian: 00:20:30

You can find out more about the biomaterials they produce at the studio by visiting www.caxacoristudio.com. That's CA-X-A-C-O-R-I studio.

Michelle: 00:20:47

Also, don't forget to check out our latest episodes.

Brian: 00:20:50

Go to episode 81 if you're interested in how extreme heat is being tackled in arid desert regions.

Michelle: 00:20:58

Then in episode 82, we talk about how small diet shifts can create big impacts in our communities.

Brian: 00:21:05

And be sure to listen to episode 83, where we discussed reverse migration, people returning home for opportunity, not necessity.

Brian: 00:21:20

You're listening to farms, food future with me, Brian Thompson and Michelle Tang.

Michelle: 00:21:26

In Italy's citrus orchards, millions of tons of juice byproducts went to waste. That is, until one innovator saw their potential.

Brian: 00:21:35

We're talking about Enrica Arena, CEO and founder of Orange Fiber, a company that patented a process to transform this waste into luxury fabrics for top fashion houses. Our reporter, Katherine Velastegui, spoke with Enrica.

Katherine Velastegui: 00:21:56

Welcome Enrica to this episode of Farms Food Future. We would like to start by asking you what inspired the creation of orange fiber and what problem were you hoping to solve?

Enrica Arena: 00:22:07

So the creation of orange fiber was inspired by really seeing oranges that were not collected for fresh consumption. And start wondering what we can possibly do while at the same time see the rising of sustainable fashion and increasing knowledge in the field of innovative material. So as we started investigating, we found that actually our targets are not fresh oranges, but that we want to work with squeezers, who then have the problem of the leftovers or juice production. The problem that we wanted to solve at the very beginning was more like, OK, let's find a different market for these oranges and then we found that instead the problem we would solve was helping the juice company to get rid of their waste while at the same time providing an innovative material for fashion that it's circular and it's not depleting the world's natural resources.

Katherine: 00:23:08

In that same sense, then what steps do you take to ensure the fabrics used by orange fiber contribute to long term sustainability rather than short term trends? For example, greenwashing.

Enrica: 00:23:21

We try to collaborate with brands who have a clear strategy in the field of sustainability and, for instance, we cannot really control exactly how they're gonna use it, but we make sure that in terms of composition of the fabric that they are using, we try to avoid certain materials, to avoid again the release of microplastics, so on one hand we focus very much on the whole supply chain from our side. So really from the raw material making the fiber, lacking the yarn and selecting the fabric weaver or the looms, the means with whom we collaborate, making sure that they have certification and that they comply with sustainability regulation. So we take care of that the the first part of the supply chain and then our clients are normally fashion houses. So in turn we collaborate with those brands that take sustainability close to their heart and to their business strategy. So it's really creating products that are meant for lasting as long as possible.

Katherine: 00:24:25

So you've mentioned that you collaborate with fashion houses and you've worked with brands like Salvatore Ferragamo, for example. What has been the response from the fashion industry and how do partnerships shape your growth?

Enrica: 00:24:41

Fashion brands are very much interested in innovative materials and at the very same time they have to do with supply chains that are a little bit resistant to change. So on one hand, there's a lot of interest, so we receive a lot of requests, but at the very same time we have realized that the best way to grow is really to provide an ingredient to fashion house existing supply chain. So in time we also switched a little bit from providing the fabric to providing the yarn to their fabric suppliers because that makes their life way easier because they don't have to charge higher. So for us, the interest on the fashion brand help on one hand shaping which products we want to develop, but also how we want to grow in terms of partnership with the supply chain.

Katherine: 00:25:33

Now lastly, do you think that Orange Fibers approach of using citrus waste from the Italian agri-food industry would work in other citrus producing regions around the world?

Enrica: 00:25:44

We have extended our IP (intellectual property) and patents in those countries where to introduce industry is existing and thriving in a way because we need to work in close relationship with choosing companies. So we started with the idea of replicating the product and the process in these countries, however, we also noticed over time and due to the fact that we want to reduce logistics and we want to have the possibility of contributing to as local as possible supply chain for production that we will also need to have relatively close to U.S. companies that also work in the space of cellulose and cellulose fiber.

Stay tuned and follow our LinkedIn account or Instagram accounts. It goes under orange Fiber brand on Instagram and orange fiber on LinkedIn.

Please be aware and be very conscious that on one hand the most sustainable garment is the one that we already own and think about extending the life cycle of your garments and take care of them and repair as much as possible and at the very same time also be mindful that when you buy something, no matter what food or textile or whatever you are actually investing in the future that you want to see.

Michelle: 00:27:12

Thank you, Enrica and Catherine to learn more about Orange Fiber, you can visit www.orangefiber.it.

Brian: 00:27:21

And to wrap up this episode, we ask how does fashion in all its glitz and glamour really affect the land that keeps us going?

Michelle: 00:27:35

You're listening to farms, food future with me, Michelle Tang and Brian Thomson, the United Nations Convention to combat Desertification, or UNCCD is best known for its work on land restoration and drought resilience but is also looking at how other industries like fashion impact our planet's land resources.

Brian: 00:27:57

Xenya Scanlon from UNCCD has been closely involved in a new publication called Fashion and Land.

Michelle: 00:28:06

Our reporter Hector Clack spoke with Xenya.

Hector Clack: 00:28:11

We know you're passionate about slow fashion. Could you tell us where that passion began?

Xenya Scanlon: 00:28:15

Actually I have been involved in the area of sustainable fashion for over a decade now. I started as a Blogger in those days. I had a very lively blog called Great Selectors that really explored the links between fashion and the environment and how we can shift the industry towards a more sustainable way of producing clothing which we all need, of course, like we need food. And also trying to generate some partnerships in this area. So from those early days we have seen of course the sustainable fashion as a topic moving from the margins to the mainstream of the debate. And I think this is something that we should really acknowledge and welcome. Nowadays we are very conscious of some of the impacts of the industry, particularly the impact on climate, which has been very well researched under my current role with UNCCD, we realized that there was a gap and also in the knowledge of the links between land and fashion. This is why we have worked together with partners on the new publication, which really unravels the environmental impacts of fashion on land and specifically through the use of some of the more commonly used fibres, cotton, wool, wood based fibers, but also the lesser known ones such as the ones that come from agricultural waste or maybe some plant based fibres that we have sort of neglected over the years hemp or linen and last not least. Also the impact of synthetics on our land. Usually the production itself does not require large land footprint, but it leaves very ugly scars such as we've seen it, for instance, in in the Chilean desert called Atacama, which has literally been transformed into a garbage heap.

Hector: 00:30:06

Could you tell us a bit more about the publication on fashion and land? What were some of the key messages or some of your personal highlights?

Xenya: 00:30:13

This application really is the first time we take the land lands to the fashion industry and by looking through that land lands we can identify both challenges but also the opportunities that come from using land resources more sustainably. We have perhaps heard some of the statistics that talk about the impact of passion and our clothes on land, it takes between for instance 2 and 2 1/2 square meters of land to produce a single T-shirt. Or maybe you've heard that at cashier's weather that many of us would wear during, you know, colder winter days takes between four and eight, goats to produce. And of course, those goats need to graze somewhere, and that in some cases results in the education land and graduation. And of course, greater pressure on the water resources. One of the most striking examples of how fashion can really do significant damage to land is seen in the Central Asia region in the RLC which has lost more than 90% of its water volume due to water extraction and that water extraction has been used for cotton production, so we definitely have seen what can go wrong, but we would like to also see examples where we can do things better and we can really work as consumers as producers as private sector governments and consumer groups to find ways where they, you know, the policies and the market incentives which would be better aligned to promote sustainable fashion.

Hector: 00:31:50

And what are your hopes for the future of fashion as the industry faces challenges like fast fashion while striving for sustainability?

Xenya: 00:31:59

It’s my greatest hope is that sustainable fashion doesn't just become a fleeting trend, that it really becomes a part of a business strategy, a business model that is seen as successful as viable, that it goes from being, you know, a philanthropic endeavour to being something that people do not even you know question. As part of developing their branches at the way that the fashion industry is developed.

We would also like to see greater circularity in the fashion industry because ultimately what we need to do is to use the scarce resources in the best possible way, and if we are able to do that, then we will alleviate the pressure on this kind of always trying to find new areas of land to cultivate or water resources to extract or greater amounts of chemicals or pesticides to put in the production of those fibers. So my hope is that this publication and the work that we do as part of the United Nations Alliance, the Sustainable fashion which we joined last year, is that this publication and these actions inspired governments and business to really create a more sustainable industry. But it also inspires us as fashion lovers and consumers to pay greater attention to land when we wear our clothes.

Michelle: 00:33:19

Thank you Zenya and Hector. You can listen to part one of her interview in episode 81 of this podcast.

Brian: 00:33:26

And that brings us to the end of this episode. Thanks as always to our producers and editor here in Rome, Rosa Gonzalez, Francesco Manetti, Michele Galloni, and to our reporters Hector Clack and Katherine Velastegui, and to Paolo Salvatori, Ava Patel and Lana Patel.

Michelle: 00:33:51

But most of all, thanks to you for listening to this episode of Farms, Fruit Future brought to you by the International Fund for Agricultural Development.

Brian: 00:34:00

We'll be back in just two weeks and head to Mongolia and South Africa for World Environment Day and we'll be joined by some very special guests, British Chef, author and TV presenter Si King.

Michelle: 00:34:14

And social activist and award-winning farmer Jack Lewis. Then on the 4th Monday in June, we talked about why financing matters.

Brian: 00:34:24

And how IFAD is making it work for the people who grow our food.

Brian and Michelle: 00:34:29

Stay tuned!

Brian: 00:34:35

This is farms, food, future, a podcast that's good for you, good for the planet, and good for farmers brought to you by the International Fund for Agricultural Development. You can find out more about all of our stories at www dot ifad dot org forward slash podcasts. Remember, we want to hear from you what you think about our stories and who you want us to be talking to. So please get in touch at podcasts@ifad.org. Send us your voice or text messages to this address and we'll be happy to play you out in the next show. Also, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast via your favorite podcast platform and please rate US and once again we'll be trying to be good for you, good for the planet, and good for the farmers. Until then from me, Brian Thomson and the team here at IFAD. Thanks for listening.